tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post1544140913417206918..comments2023-10-20T06:48:04.662-05:00Comments on Lord of the Green Dragons: Spin Cycle meets Spin DoctorRob Kuntzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17648200357715492214noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-28206542533118522732010-01-05T11:04:58.017-06:002010-01-05T11:04:58.017-06:00This discussion you've begun Rob is well timed...This discussion you've begun Rob is well timed. Browsing through the blogdom last night in search of answers & looking for a feel of what to expect this year, it appears that more than a few in the community have set a quantity of release goals for the year. In other words instead of having a number of planned projects come to completion it seems that "7" is the goal irregardless of content! If these goals are close to being achieved there will be no shortage of material in the market. This coincides greatly with one of your last comments about fan based reviews. <br /><br /> "Our review system for the industry has not changed and is mostly fan driven, leaving retailers and purchasers little up-front information on products before purchasing same. " - Rob<br /><br />Being a low-brow'd ape I read right past that & apparently needed to walk around on that one for a bit to realize how true & relevant that statement is. I am not of the "inner circle of the OSM*," so I find myself peering in and reading between the lines in the comments of new release posts on the various web sites. Like an investigator, I go about discerning any hidden messages I can surmise from the 'glad-reviews.' Sure, there are some authors I trust. There are more I would like to trust. <br /><br />The community does need a critical reviewer(s).<br /><br />*Old School MovementCimmerianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613839760282695583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-35484645318160381762010-01-05T09:38:30.778-06:002010-01-05T09:38:30.778-06:00Hey Delve.
The move to get everyone on the same p...Hey Delve.<br /><br />The move to get everyone on the same page rules-wise was pushed mostly by a need to protect IP and the game itself as TSR then perceived it. Notwithstanding the fact that the mechanics could not be protected from duplication or use (T&T and Mayfair proved that, as did others). But TSR wanted to stop a future perceived erosion of their market by solidly placing a here-and-now rule of rules on the market, and which had variable results. The RPGA was an arm of that philosophy, as was GENCON and The Dragon Magazine. Thus the move to codify the main parts of the rules through AD&D was mostly market-driven, though there were some good rules added to the game along the way, of course.<br /><br />The move from a designer-run company to corporate entity was inevitable given TSR's fantastic growth period that propelled it to a multi-million dollar company in 3-4 years. As much as Gary resisted some of the directives, after a while he found himself powerless to do much (c.f., the DRAGONLANCE marketing episode which put Greyhawk on the skids, etc) except for some distinct occasions which occurred later, but at that point it was too late for the company.Rob Kuntzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17648200357715492214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-43121307521974590812010-01-05T09:20:41.332-06:002010-01-05T09:20:41.332-06:00Ok, I get where you are coming from now. So what y...Ok, I get where you are coming from now. So what you mean is in some manner due to there not being a how can I put this. Quality control in a way, the companies should have been more selective at what they published, than just producing material just for the sake of making money. If they felt something didn't qualify or live up to the companies standards then it shouldn't have been printed. From what I gather, the begnning of TSR was run by the game designers, writers and artists. The quote I read from Mr. Gygax was that it meant much more to the company at the time than to just make a game and sell out to the highest bidder. Once it got swamped by the corporate "money grab" mind set, the creative vision of the original designers and the direction the game was lost. Kinda like what happened to mainstream music in some manner. It's more about the sale than the quality. But unfortunately it;s due to the change in business ethics. <br /><br />Since you knew Mr.Gygax did he ever mention what direction he wanted the game to take? Or was he contempt with the game as being complete?. From what I read AD&D was created to have a more structured set of rules for conventions and gatherings because the OD&D was very open that most people weren't playing the same rules. Or was that just due to people's interpretations to the rules? I know that's off topic but it's not everyday I've had the opportunity to ask questions to one of the original game designers.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18319134195190984813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-71193890213030772532010-01-05T08:17:54.493-06:002010-01-05T08:17:54.493-06:00Hey Delve. Whereas I agree with you on the point ...Hey Delve. Whereas I agree with you on the point or cloning the game itself (especially as WotC pulled all the PDFs of OD&D and others from such sites like RPGNOW), that is not what I was speaking of.<br /><br />> I do believe that there will be some low quality work put out as there was also in the past, but they have to start from somewhere right?<br /><br />Hmm. This is my point,really. If the "chaff" as Cimmerian refers to it in his own post (referenced earlier) continues, won't we in fact be faced with a <br />similar circumstance that plagued (and brought low) many retail stores and distributors who vested in the same chaff (or low quality product) in the d20 movement? Our review system for the industry has not changed and is mostly fan driven, leaving retailers and purchasers little up-front information on products before purchasing same.<br /><br />At the same time I see this "accepted mediocrity level" as a downer, for this is exactly what TSR and WotC did and which drove purchasers away over time. This does not address long term investment and sides with a failed and reduplicated pattern of the past which proves over and over again to bring in consumers only to lose them in the long run and in so doing earn the label of mediocrity if not worse while doing so.<br /><br />To me the strength of D&D's vision as we created it then is worthy of much more.Rob Kuntzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17648200357715492214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-90067301054733381912010-01-05T07:47:02.467-06:002010-01-05T07:47:02.467-06:00I thinks what's happening with the whole *Old ...I thinks what's happening with the whole *Old School Revival* is that due to the internet, these materials are becomings accessable to those who barely knew anything about it. Which led to the exchange of PDF's or just being able to purchase it. The clones make it a lot cheaper to purchase than buying a vintage white box set that sell for $300 or more at times and they are not always in the best of condition. I do believe that there will be some low quality work put out as there was also in the past, but they have to start from somewhere right?. Something good may come of it, time will tell. It's not like a lot of us are going to hold their breath and wait for Mattel to rerelease the early versions of the game anytime soon. So that leaves it in the hands of the fans at the moment. I myself am a big fan of Holmes Basic set and I am currently writing an expansion for other fans to use. It is an interesting time in fantasy rpg's in some manner. It's getting more people motivated and off their duffs to start writing and start using their immaginations. Which leads me to the last part of this entry. More people are going back to the start for inspiration and hunting down old pulp-sci-fi, fantasy books and discussing them. A new fan base is developing and combining with the old one. Which I think its pretty neat,to get fans of all ages sitting around the table together.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18319134195190984813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-29584105614108732332010-01-04T23:02:51.745-06:002010-01-04T23:02:51.745-06:00Thanks James. If you liked Bottle City you'll...Thanks James. If you liked Bottle City you'll love Castle El Raja Key for sure.<br /><br />As to the rest, my main point is this: We owe it to the people we are bringing aboard this new wave, movement, or OSR, whatever folks want to call it, we owe it to sculpt them in the best possible manner. TSR started that with great product and vision. At a point the vision weakened. We now look back and historically root ourselves to separate points in that history and we call it this or that. One thing cannot be put aside, unmade or counterfeited: this is a game of imagination and has no creative limits. Where TSR failed was to start repeating the idea of fantasy as a dry cycle. Sure we find gems amongst the treasure, but for the most part it's green fields, castles, undead and the ever used topes of the past. TSR used to have a trade phrase: "Products For Your Imagination." The Greyhawk boxed set was one of those products as you've noted. How can fantasy expand if we are ever repeating the same cycle? Products at this point, in my hearty opinion, must be pushed to the limits of their design potentials lest we become rooted as unmovable trees in a self-proclaimed land of regurgitated fantasy. Yeah, it's pretty, Sure there's fun; but what boundaries are being pushed if we merely emulate the past? Ooh, like D1-3, OOh! Sure they were good. But what now? Did Vance and Howard and Leiber only emulate the past? Did they merely regurgitate stories of Atlantis and Brass and others that preceded them, or did they push the envelope? And in so doing they did not become fixed like so many would like to believe they did. They would have rejected the idea of fixity in story lines and were always pushing the limits of their writing, pushing beyond what had been done. True fantasists do not embrace a fixed point in time, but embrace matter that has gone back to the Odyssey and has come forward in many different ways and means. It has not ended, for if it does, the wheel will stop spinning and the cycle will finish. This is a great opportunity for the new and creative folk to step forward and raise the bar of design and push the envelope of fantasy, not merely to repeat a lone cycle from its history.<br /><br />My two cents worth.Rob Kuntzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17648200357715492214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-74426691454001151362010-01-04T22:24:54.082-06:002010-01-04T22:24:54.082-06:00I did see it during the 3e days, just not back in ...I did see it during the 3e days, just not back in the 80's. Could partly just be prejudiced perception on my part. My own neck of the woods may have been a bit atypical as well. Collecting is certainly a factor. One of my favorite possessions is my World of Greyhawk boxed set. I love Greyhawk, but, I've never ran it. I was just a teenager when I bought it and instead of wanting to run it, I was inspired to create my own campaign world. But, I spent hours, reading and re-reading the material and studying those gorgeous maps. <br /><br />I think the Old School publishing thing is coming from an entirely different place. Everyone is creating, sharing, and there's this great, cross-fertilization of ideas going on. I used some purchased OSR material in a game I ran for my family, the other day. Partly because I really like the way all the bloggers, self-publishers, etc., are putting out all this information, both for purchase and for free and I like taking part in the community aspects of the scene. One of the main purposes of my own blog, is to support and promote the OSR and what we're doing with it. Ah, that reminds me. My wife gave me the Original Bottle City for Christmas. Thanks for publishing that. Love the maps!Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-63395764591950554402010-01-04T20:47:45.483-06:002010-01-04T20:47:45.483-06:00Thanks James.
Well, sales figures don't lie. ...Thanks James.<br /><br />Well, sales figures don't lie. TSR gutted the market with adventure releases in the millions and they weren't sitting on shelves. I do sometimes wonder at the breakdown of figures for those just collecting everything AND using these for farming information from. But can that represent more than at least 50%? Certainly folks were not eating these for breakfast. :)<br /><br />In espying the past I also compare two future trends--that of the various 3E+ movements and the new OSM adventures. It is a model that has been in existence for years,of course, and one that I even contributed to now and then, so my criticalness is not so much aimed at the model itself, just what it became through abuse within the sales pattern exemplified by TSR.<br /><br />Outside of the fact that there are those as yourself and myself who play these games and create them from scratch, there still exists a high demand for adventures. My only hope is that companies now in charge of these offerings, and thus the fate of their many DMs and their players in the long term arrangement, put forth their best effort and do not thereby duplicate the results which lead to the fractionalization of our industry to begin with.<br /><br />I will be posting more on this from time to time; and I don't expect every one will enjoy, or agree with, what I have to say. My investment in this industry is from the beginning, so take that as the reason for my concern and no more.Rob Kuntzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17648200357715492214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-88374882753065038722010-01-04T20:30:58.585-06:002010-01-04T20:30:58.585-06:00Your experience that the "dependents" we...Your experience that the "dependents" were the majority, is what I find of interest. Back in the early 80's, way, way, down south in Alabama, my experience was entirely different. Every DM I knew or played with, including myself, all designed our own stuff, by and large. I may have been an extreme example, using a published module 1 time, during a five year long campaign. But, the practices of my friends and acquaintances were comparable. We tended to use modules when we were first learning, but after that, it was a rare thing. Regarding the people I knew and met, back in the 80's, I can't recall ever meeting a DM who did significantly otherwise.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-89167127663985385042010-01-04T16:53:20.526-06:002010-01-04T16:53:20.526-06:00Politeness is the key to posting here. As I am st...Politeness is the key to posting here. As I am stating my theory and summarizing my views politely I expect the same in return. Name calling and trolling posts such as the preceding one will always be deleted. If one disagrees withe my views, at least have the respect to post such disagreements in a professional manner. Thanks. -- RJKRob Kuntzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17648200357715492214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-63144669639715151242010-01-04T16:41:03.726-06:002010-01-04T16:41:03.726-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeremy Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17072164588443858336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-60420021970905535682010-01-04T15:04:11.886-06:002010-01-04T15:04:11.886-06:00It is refreshing to read this from one member of t...It is refreshing to read this from one member of the Source Personnel. In less eloquent ways (and clearly, 0 authority,) I had said the same, 'back in the day', much to the annoyance of those I gamed with.<br /><br />Best to you,Timeshadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09952601433965644275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1016645013375966173.post-6348587461122792722010-01-04T14:13:18.578-06:002010-01-04T14:13:18.578-06:00Man, I share your "quiet sadness" and fo...Man, I share your "quiet sadness" and for the same reasons. I hope my latest project is going to open minds more than close 'em.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.com