Wither DnD??--EDITORIAL

Well, it never died, but not for lack of of certain companies trying, it seems. Most people know that I am an Elder (not Old School, never quite agreed with the many, too many connotations associated with that word, though I let it pass when applied to me, whatever) of the creative sort. My grounding was in games: miniatures, board games, parlor games, then RPG with OD&D (but also AD&D 1E & 2E, 3E, 3.5, C&C). Most people today would take that OD&D part and run with it, figuring I was some old fart or such (well, at times, but I thought I closed the blinds then when nodding off with my wool blanky and rocking chair)... I was the youngest of the three who shaped the game early on. When asked by Flint Dille at GaryCon1 what exactly had I contributed to the game, and in front of Luke and Elise Gygax, I related a part, that when Gary was stuck balancing the upcoming classes for Greyhawk Supplement #1 to D&D that he called me at Don Kaye's house, requesting help (I had already handed in my parts for the MS, but was still there for my ole buddy and pal, of course). He was worried about hit dice. Every class in OD&D got a d6 per level, so MU's seemed on par with fighters but had spells (our biggest worry). Well it simply blurt from me over the phone that we should use d8 for fighters, d6 for clerics and thieves and d4 for MUs (later changed in AD&D to d10 for fighters and so on).

Boy has the game come a "long way" since then. I must admit to sharing the view here expressed at this fine blog hosted by Tim Knight, and that about D&D 4th Rendition. It's not that we can't reinvent the wheel whenever this is needed, but why? Errr. Money? Again, I embrace free enterprise (just don't want it to embrace me too hard), so I am not against companies who creatively and earnestly seek dollars. But at what expense has this been bought in the past?

I am afraid these days that such appellations as "Fantasy Role Playing Games," and as compared to D&D here and present, are losing ground as by-products of their two most important words: Fantasy & Games. Fantasy is the enchantment that led us to play to begin with; and the game is what keeps us there. Drain the life out of either of these two ideas and you are left with a shell, a ghost of both at best, and those that attach to it and call it the "gift," their eyes perhaps twinkling all the way to the bank.

In my upcoming book of interrelated essays (The Rise and Fall of TSR Hobbies: It's Impact Upon the Fantasy Fiction and FRPG Markets) I most strongly assert the above statements and then some, while offering remedies. Unfortunately, I have yet another essay to include in that book as the tally is in and WotC once again proves that their fantasy and Games are lacking. One could take exception with this as always, and one can always find the road that is best suited to travel. But I must voice ever so strongly that with the push on to rediscover our roots in gaming, and especially RPG, and then distill from those roots and streams and springs what has fed our industry for so long, that the Coastal Wizards might have learned their lessons if they had cared to. Such are the machinations of those whose plans are laid in the future and not the present or past.

There is a person here on this blog who passed along a book title to me. It is not fantasy, but it contains a lot of what is part of it. So besides WotC's managers reading the "Art of War," I suggest a perusing of it as well: "Defending Ancient Springs," by Kathleen Raine.

In between, I hope you never get caught in a dead end by an iron golem!

Rob Kuntz

The Great God Awto

I readily and heartily admit to being a die-hard Clark Ashton Smith fan. His stories are so like being buried in quicksand and enjoying every moment of it. I read one I hadn't in the past here.

It's a very timely story that caught me unaware, and it made me think and laugh at once. One more for Smith's genius, one more to ponder and appreciate. Classics never die.

1:20

Volume I of original Dungeons & Dragons (1974) includes this little tidbit that has long intrigued me:

Number of Players: At least one referee and from four to fifty players can be handled in any single campaign, but the referee to player ratio should be about 1:20 or thereabouts.

There are a lot of ways to read this. One is to assume that the 1:20 ratio is an atavism, a throwback to the way the wargames out of which D&D had grown were played. Another is to treat it as a guess based on how the authors believed the game would be played. Yet another is to see it simply as a reflection of the experiences of Gygax and Arneson, whose home campaigns included exceptionally large numbers of players by today's standards.

What I find interesting is that most interpretations of this passage take it as given that the 1:20 ratio is no longer tenable; it's at best an artifact from another time. There's a lot to support this notion. In my three decades (!) of playing this game, I never had more than 8-10 regular players at my table and the norm was usually 4-6. Back in the faddish days of the hobby, I participated in pick-up campaigns that were run at local game stores or at "game days" sponsored by public libraries. Those campaigns often had close to 20 people participating in them. I remember one rather fun campaign run at a library, which used this giant conference table to seat us, with the referee seated at one end -- the chairman's position -- and the bunch of us players on the other seats. It was a lot of fun and far less chaotic than one might expect, but that probably had a lot to do with the referee, who was a grognard of the original sort, well-known for his lengthy and well-organized wargames campaigns.

Reading that passage now, I don't think it's meant to be understood that there'd be 4-50 players participating in any single session at the same time. Rather, I suspect the idea is that a campaign, encompassing many sessions over many different days, might encompass that many players. The assumptions seems to have been that there'd be many different groups of players, all of whom shared a referee and whose adventures all took place within the same world. One of the reasons why the early megadungeons may have been so huge was to accommodate multiple groups of adventurers tramping through them on a regular basis. These places had to be big or else the referee would soon find himself without anything to occupy his many players.

I've long wanted to be able to run a campaign along similar lines, but I've never had enough players to make a serious go at it. I think it's a pity really, since this style of play had a big influence on the early development of the game. Understanding the dynamics of having several adventuring groups in the same campaign is knowledge many of us don't possess and I think it skews our understanding of the hobby's origins and subsequent growth. Unfortunately, I'm not sure this style could be recreated easily nowadays. The older campaigns drew heavily on already-existing game clubs, things that, in my experience anyway, are much rarer now than they used to be. The pool of available gamers is still quite large, but they seem to be more diffuse and insular than they were back in the day (again, at least in my experience).

Still, it's an intriguing thought.

Adventures With 1st Edition Lethalness

I have always thought that the summaries here of Maure Castle's/Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure contained excellent examples of 1st Edition AD&D (and before) lethalness.
The person's summaries of his group's experiences actually make me less enamored for having been mentioned as the "author" but somewhat more proud, instead, as a DM having always embraced a concept I was so often faced with as Robilar, who was constantly challenged across the gaming table by EGG's DM contrivances. Greyhawk Castle and Castle El Raja Key could be very lethal, and in many ways. Not that they were party killers (PK), but there were always chances that this might happen if the players did not think, of course. It is noteworthy that the above summary hits on many levels, as in "How" one dies that makes a legend, etc. It does bring back memories of the beginnings of D&D adventuring where all you could do in death was to become a legend; and by escaping same you became that same legend, a veteran, who was well respected by others in the party for having smarts, or at least luck. It was really refreshing reading that summary.

Can any of our other astute and informed members list other adventure modules that are in their experience as lethal or at least point towards being so? The systems are not important, but a nod towards 1st/2nd/OD&D would be nice (not including Tomb of Horrors, which is mentioned in the above summary).

Orcus, God of the Underworld

Something I have in the works and so wanted to share. The image is rendered by Jason Braun.

ORCUS
A Rethinking of the Ancient, Roman God of the Underworld

by Robert J. Kuntz
© 2009, Robert Kuntz.

Preface: Introductory Matter/Mythological Occurrences

The Roman god, “Orcus,” was a god of the Underworld, parallel with Pluto and thus with the Greek god, Hades, and by some affiliations with Dis (Dis Pater) and Tartarus. He seemed to have many forms and faces in keeping with the changing cultural view influencing this. There have also been relationships drawn between him and the Etruscan myth; and a depiction of a Cyclops at Tarquinia was errantly confused for him.

We can with all certainty put these gods in one basket, so to speak, and from there draw forth matter for use in creating FRPG material. The most extant matter on the amalgam of these classical underworld gods exists in the form of Pluto (Hades).

“Mortals, when they called on his name, beat the ground with their hands, and, averting their faces, sacrificed black sheep to him and to his queen. He is also known as Dis, Orcus, and Tartarus.”--Classic Myths In Ancient Literature, C. M. Gayley, 1893. [Emphasis points mine.]

That E. Gary Gygax included Orcus in the 1st Edition of the Monster Manual as a ram-headed “demon prince” of the Underworld, and in connection with the undead, gives more than ample proof to the derived source for this. In classical myth Hades was the least revered of gods, the least called upon and the most cursed, and common opinion of him was in fact so negative that it equated him with personified evil, which might be noted in particular in Aristophane’s play, “The Frogs,” wherein the Underworld is described according to the prevailing opinions of the time as a foreboding place of horrors. That mortals sacrificed black sheep to him is also noteworthy when comparing the rams head that EGG describes Orcus as having. In conjunction with this, that “mortals beat the ground” and averted their faces while offering this sacrifice is notable.

“When a person imitates the evil he would repel--grinning like a wolf to ward off wolves, smearing his face with blood to ward off blood and death, making thunderous noises to drive away thunderstorms--anthropologists speak of homoeopathic magic; when he makes use of some object, such as hair or nails, which has been a part of or has been in contact with the individual, the name contagious magic is given. The general term sympathetic magic is applied to both types, for a mysterious sympathy is supposed to exist between the object to be influenced and the object which is like or has been in contact with it. Often the rite is both contagious and homoeopathic at the same time.”--Taboo, Magic, Spirits: A Study of Primitive Elements in Roman Religion; Eli Edward Burriss, 1931. [Emphasis mine.]

We can assume here that the ancient Romans beat the ground to get Pluto’s (Orcus’) attention; and in so doing they averted their eyes, as he was the god of death and was not to be looked upon if he should appear. To this precise formula they added a sacrifice of a black sheep, no doubt due to another ritualistic reason which likely had a deeper meaning beyond a simple offering. And perhaps this related to his appearance, imagined or legendary.

Sheep were offered to gods on many sacrificial occasions, and thus a black one could have meant nothing more than a similar color relationship with that of the dark Underworld. But if this were the case, then the sympathy part of the normal ritual would have had no room for full exploitation in this instance, and in petitioning gods the Romans and Greeks were very elaborate and precise in their details. Therefore every action and material conveyed through these had a specific meaning, and more often compound ones. Did they offer the black sheep because he was like it in some form or another?

Though the true answer to the question of his appearance remains beyond our grasp, the citations provide enough primary and secondary information to build upon this by way of imaginative extrapolation. Thus one can easily create information about Orcus and the cults that worshiped this aloof god in his many forms...

Blogs Away!

We have invited a select number of folks to this blog with the idea of exchanging meaningful information and interchange. Those listed as contributors may post articles and commentary
at will, so do not be shy. Topics are pretty inclusive: Fantasy & SF, Game Theory, related historical highlights, D&D, AD&D and/or related systems or ideas pertaining to such, myth, legend, folklore, literature and especially how these are used in context in either games or related fiction or have some relational POV rarely if ever exposed, fantasy authors of note or influence ("old" or "new") and other creative perspectives and slants which would contribute to the growth and exchange of that minutiae we all find so interesting.

Return From GaryCon1

That's what the badge said: #1. Folks, Eric and I had a supremely good time at GC#1. My intent was to meet with the Gygax family and talk, and I did so with Luke, Ernie, Heidi and Elise and her husband. Also with Flint Dille, Paul Stormberg, Rhuvein, Jim Ward, Mike Carr, Tom Wham, Greg Timm, and so many others that it was in a word delightful. I met with Ed Kann and dined with him at the Next Door Pub, a well known and liked place for pizza which was always the spot back then for TSR folk to hang out at. Ed not only is slated to produce more great art pieces for PPP, but he is re-rendering the Original Castle levels in color from my originals (they will retain all the nuances and forms of the originals) and he will be doing increasing design work for us as well, so look for more from him down the pike. Also caught up with "two shades" of the past in the form of their sons, but I will let Eric recount that story. Life is ever amazing. In all a great time. I especially appreciated spending time with my old adopted family the Gygax's, who with the usual tenacity and verve have held up well and continue to do their father's name and memory justice.

Honoring Gary for his Artistic Chutzpah!

We go to Legion Hall this weekend to honor the memory of Gary at Gary Con II (correction, Gary Can I), where in the distant past the intimate Winter and Spring mini-cons were held. My distinct memories of these include learning Mah Jong from Schar Niebling and being absolutely amazed by the massive temples erected by Dave Sutherland for his Empire of the Petal Throne campaign. But even more special, Gary ran Greyhawk. You see, swamped by the growing business of TSR, Gary had turned the Greyhawk campaign over to Robert, and thus, Greyhawk adventures run by Gary were quite scarce outside of these seasonal venues.

I had the fortune of attending one of these Spring Con Greyhawk adventures, which was also attended by a friend of Gary’s up from Chicago. However, this fellow, whose name I don’t recall, seemed oddly unaccustomed to Gary’s judging style. Of course, Gary was quite patient with him, even mildly amused when the fellow insisted upon taking a pack mule into the dungeon. Where, after a few warning signs, it became clear to everyone that the mule would soon become our party’s doom. But rather than sacrifice the mule, this gent took issue with Gary's judging, and with the raw impudence that only a childhood friend could conjure, our muler shoved the open DMG into Gary's face, insistently stabbing at one of its pages. Gary leaned back and waved off his recently published volume and surprisingly disclaimed that he didn't care what was in it, he was ruling this way now!

One might be tempted to conclude a moral from this, wherein we appreciate Gary’s dictum that rules are merely guidelines, etcetera. However, we would be missing the more interesting point that Gary could often be as stubborn as a mule! And for sure, while living in a terribly politically correct world this might seem wrong to say. But we here have our feet deep in fantastic worlds outside those kinds of restrictions, so please bear with me.

Back at the gaming table, relieved by Gary's decisiveness, his chutzpah was of particular clarity to me in that moment: it displayed that glorious, deeply respectable wherewithal that every creatively invested human can toast for its utility and power to move things forward, especially when clouds of doubt and confusion would otherwise pervade. On this honorous weekend, we can now appreciate that same stubborn streak for setting uncountable worlds in motion, which now revolve deeply within our collective imaginations and continue to pull from all sources in a grand play of pure thought.

One might even ask, if we are not so stubborn ourselves, then perhaps our own creations could become more impactful and complete if we were more so? But, with this conscious freedom to realize our creative power made clear by our honored exemplary, then another moral to this anecdote should acutely strikes us to temper the thrill:

It is sometimes wiser to leave your mule at home!

Origin of the Black Pudding? Roots in CA Smith Conceptions?

One might wonder where EGG came up with all the puddings, slimes and oozes apparent in OD&D and later expanded (pun intended) into so many forms.

I have thought about the pulp story connections, especially those aligned to Clark Ashton Smith's mythos contributions. Strangely, Smith was never recognized as a primary influence in EGG's DMG Recommended Reading list, which I later, and gently, took him to task for while pushing a copy of Timescape's City of the Singing Flame into his hand, which he indeed read, thereafter complimenting the stories therein [1980, while he was visiting with me at my house]. How could Smith, being part of the great triumvirate of REH>HPL>CAS which was so recognized in the pulp community of the 30's & 40's on through the Arkham House reprints, and into the present, have been missed by him?

But I digress. I have tracked many influences for the "puddings" over the years, and I could even extrapolate (and have) from Star Trek's "The Devil in the Dark" episode's "monster" that bored tunnels and was very "pudding-like" in appearance. Of course there is also the "Blob," and perhaps even more to think about, no doubt. We shall never know, unless EGG recounted the influence somewhere I am not aware of.

But do read with care the following about C. A. Smith's "Formless Spawn," and then reference the monsters we described on page #63 of Greyhawk: Supplement #1 to D&D, particularly noting the second to last paragraph there. Could these manifestations have been influenced by such a source as well as used by EGG? At the time there was no connection to Smith's stories by myself (this would begin in 1976, as I had read almost all of the SF & F books that EGG had recommended from his shelves then, and Smith had been completely absent ). We contrived these Greyhawk monstrosities rather quickly then, especially the ogre jelly, as it had that double meaning that we both found humorous thinking future-wise about when its description would (gleefully, for us) elicit the suitable reactions of horror we foresaw from our players. But if Smith was the source, then why no mention of him at all? I have always found Smith's decidedly dark and fantastic stories very inspiring on a fantasy level and have always wondered of his omission from the earliest days of OD&D.

Formless spawn [as referenced from the Wikpedia article]

The basin ... was filled with a sort of viscous and semi-liquescent substance, quite opaque and of a sooty color.... [T]he center swelled as if with the action of some powerful yeast [and] an uncouth amorphous head with dull and bulging eyes arose gradually on an ever-lengthening neck ... Then two arms — if one could call them arms — likewise arose inch by inch, and we saw that the thing was not ... a creature immersed in the liquid, but that the liquid itself had put forth this hideous neck and head, and [it was now forming arms] that groped toward us with tentacle-like appendages in lieu of claws or hands! ... Then the whole mass of the dark fluid began to rise [and] poured over the rim of the basin like a torrent of black quicksilver, taking as it reached the floor an undulant ophidian form which immediately developed more than a dozen short legs.
—Clark Ashton Smith, "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros"
Tsathoggua's will is carried out by the formless spawn, polymorphic entities made of black goo. They are extremely resilient and very difficult to dispatch. Formless spawn can take any shape and can attack their targets in nearly every conceivable way. They are surprisingly flexible and plastic-like, and can quickly flow into a room through the tiniest of cracks. They attack by trampling their targets, biting them, or crushing them with their grasp. The Call of Cthulhu roleplaying game's entry on Formless Spawn also claims that they are powerfully acidic in substance and can dissolve human flesh with even a slight touch [bold emphasis points mine--RJK].

Formless spawn often rest in basins in Tsathoggua's temples and keep the sanctuary from being defiled by nonbelievers.

Mordenkainen Remembered

Mordenkainen the Great

by Rob Kuntz

Twice stricken and fallen so,
Mordenkainen the Great,
Shaper of Worlds,
Shaper of Souls.

Iron claws could not rend thee,
Neither did puddings black scare,
Join you now in feasts laid out,
A year's repast so fair.

Fire and ice you commanded,
Fantasy gouts all colored rare,
Your magical words cleaving high,
To change our earth, so bare.

Wither Murlynd in his 'pose?
And wither authors you did meet,
While walking paths of ancient times?
...Whom now in fondness you entreat.

Front Cover ART, 1 of 6, Original Castle Levels

Edward Kann has done a superb job of rendering a "Brain Flayer" for one of the six Original Castle levels due out this year from my pen. Do enjoy!--RJK

The Sphere of Many Eyes

Though many of the monsters of Dungeons & Dragons have their origins in mythology and folklore, many more are wholly original creations. Perhaps one of the most iconic is the beholder, which first appeared in Supplement I to OD&D, Greyhawk, in 1976. As I recall, the beholder was not a Gygaxian creation, but instead the work of Terry Kuntz, player of Terik and the Monk with No Name.

I've often wondered about what might have inspired the beholder. Did it have any antecedents in pulp fantasy literature? Was it based on a piece of artwork, like the remorhaz in this earlier entry? A nightmare perhaps? The seeds from which great ideas spring can be found almost anywhere and that's certainly true in the case of D&D, whose monsters have origins as diverse as rubber "dinosaur" toys from Japan (like the rust monster and bulette) or fondness for a particular movie from one's youth (like the iron golem).

I personally find tales of the origins of D&D monsters fascinating and would love to know more of them. Do any of my fellow contributors have any insights to share on the beholder's genesis?

Creatures that Were Featured: Remorhaz Little Known History

One day while going about my TSR duties at Williams & Marshall Street, EGG waved me into his upstairs office and showed me the picture posted here. He noted that it had been drawn by Erol
Otus, that he liked it, but didn't have any statistics for it, nor even a name. He handed it to me asking if I'd create the beast; and so I did, name and all, though no proper credit appeared in the DRAGON's Creature Features that I am aware of. Erol is another interesting soul who I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with again, after so many years, at GENCON 40. If anyone knows his e-mail, please send it to me so I can invite him to discuss his past, present and future art projects and pull down some insight from one of the "old time" artists who strongly influenced the D&D game in its many phases.

In Memoriam (1938-2008)

Will the Real Robilar Please Stand Up...

Robilar in reality as my PC, then as a fictional icon in many supplemental, published works, has had quite a history indeed. Over time I had tried to reconcile his changed history, a point somewhat reached, in part, through the publication of WotC's Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, that Erik Mona had a skillful hand in reconstructing. Therein we find that there was "another" Robilar, which indeed nicely accounts for the Rary the Traitor revision of his history. No doubt this was inspired by the exchange that Jason Verbitsky and I had on the Greytalk-L in 1997, which I append hereafter. And where is Jason these days? I'd like to invite him to contribute more decisive and enlightening commentaries on the state of our industry, and of Greyhawk, past and present.

****
Subject: Re: [GREYTALK] Robilar's return
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:03:24 -0700
From: Jason Verbitsky
To: rjkuntz@gci-net.com
CC: GREYTALK MAILING LIST

rjkuntz wrote:
>
> I have begun taking notes and making sketches for a reworked version of Robilar's castle in the the Gnarley Forest; though with my deadlines for Troll [Magazine] and a novel synopsis forthcoming I have had little time to push this one forward beyond 2 pages of opening text by Robilar's wizard, Otto, who is the narrator for this. I see it as an adventure/narrative with Otto dipping in and out as I paste together Robilar's singular adventures--much like a stream of short stories, but as AD&D formats--and Otto commenting on where R. proceeds to after each (ie., adventure --> narrative --> adventure --> narrative, etc.) This would culminate in his return (possibly with a novel I have in mind) and a minimodule (possibly through DUNGEON) and/or a full module detailing his castle and territories near the Wild Coast.
>
> The adventure could be run solo or with these addiional NPCs:
>
> --Quij the orc hero companion
> --Djinn (yep, someone would have to play Robilar's djnn!)
> --and possibly Otto (in parts only)
>
> The main part would delineate Robilar's whereabouts after his castle was abandonned and sacked (I headed him east towards (what would be France) a temple to Zuggtmoy, ostensibly overseas, now west! perhaps DA#1 map or Oreik's Empire of Lynn). He was carrying an artifact of evil, an orb (cf, Eldritch Wizardry artifacts, and later 1st ed. DMG), which was affecting his mind and obsessing him with uncovering the other parts. Also, I have good premises for explaining away the Rary stuff (since Robilar had access to many clone spells (i.e., the first clone spell, as devised by Dave Arneson, was located and found by Mordenkainen and Robilar in their adventure to the City of the Gods)), and this could easily be done with this outline:
>
> 1) Robilar's castle is sacked
> 2) Rary turns up there and roots through the remains
> 3) Clone spells are found
> 4) Robilar skin samples are found
> 5) Rary devises a plan to defeat the Circle with C-Robilar, who is
> their trusted friend. That is why the C-Robilar (perhaps) was able to
> get so close to and destroy the clones of the Tenser, etc.
> 6) They depart for the desert to hide (near Maure Castle maybe?)
> 7) The real Robilar is now insane, wandering but still driven by the
> artifact and his need for revenge (and possibly a little rest).
> 8) Otto affects temporary cures as Robilar is assylumed in Lynn and
> finally locates the hiding place of Rary.
> 9) Robilar starts his long return as described through
> narrative/adventure again. This culminates in several things...
> A) Robilar changing alignment back to true Neutral (tis where he
> started before the artifacts came into the picture)
> B) The rebuilding/repopulating of his stronghold
> C) Reganing of his Green Dragon Inn in Greyhawk City
> D) The destruction of his enemies
> E) The ressurection of a TSR legend?
>
> Can I get some input here? Would this be something, anything, of interest to you folk to see published? If so, I will write a synopsis based upon this and submit it to Harrold Johnson for his consideration. I had already informed him that I had some Robilar deas, that's it. But this could solidify an approach. Let me know gentlefolk!
>
> Rob

Some input? Sure. Here's a little feedback (for whatever it's worth):

Rob, I think that as Robilar is your character you should have had a say in anything that was done with him. Before TSR published the whole Rary-Robilar caper (Greyhawk Wars & Rary the Traitor) they should have first asked you about Robilar's actions and offered to let you (and/or whoever ran Rary) to write a sourcebook about the characters. If they did offer you this chance and you passed it up, then anything that you publish on Robilar in the future should incorporate those events in _Rary the Traitor_. Wether or not this was the case, you have generously offer to reconcile the FtA Robilar with the real Robliar -- your own.

I think your clone idea for Robilar is an excellent one because: 1) it lets you, the creator of the character, determine Robilar's true actions. 2) yet it incorporates the FtA version of 'Robilar' at the same time. Which bridges the gap between original and FtA campaigns nicely. This is just the thing that needs to be done in any new Greyhawk attempt.

Here's what I'd personally like to see about Robliar from you based on what you've said:

1) A full character sheet and biography detailing everything that Robilar did. Your narrative approach should do this nicely -- be it by Otto as you suggest or by Robilar himself as I would have expected from the _Rogues Gallery_ entry, but it's your call.

Pray tell us all tales of his many adventures that he remembers so well, for now is the later time for you to tell "those who might wish to know his odd facts" (RG 46). This would make an excellent article or series of articles in DRAGON magazine for instance -- I'd re-subscribe to DRAGON if I knew this would happen...

BTW, how does Iggwilv (cf. AoE 330) fit into the story of the freeing of Zuggumoy? Is it a seperate version of the freeing of the demon princess? Or was she there with Robilar and just telling the tale her way to Iuz?

2) The mini-module that you mentioned as you suggest through DUNGEON is likewise an excellent idea which would cause me to resubscribe to that magazine as well. Part of what I liked about _Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure_ was that the pre-generated characters weren't 'no-names'. I think it would be a blast to run Robilar, Quij, and Djinn in an ,adventure!

Also by using 'name-brand' pregenerated characters you can easily add a one page summary of what would have happened if the module wasn't run in the campaign. Wouldn't that have been a nice touch in the GDQ or T modules? Gives a better base timeline to work from. If the players use their own characters then changing what happened comes naturally.

3) (An) article(s) or a full sourcebook detailing Robilar's castle and territory in the Gnarley Forest. Both versions would be nice: before it is sacked, and after it is rebuilt (and possibly even a intermediate ruins version as well). This would also allow for Both original and FtA campaigners to make use of the material.

4) You mention Robilar 'regaining' the Green Dragon Inn. Like Robilar's Castle this would make a good article (or series of articles) or a sourcebook. Again it could work in different periods if it dealt with all incarnations of the Green Dragon Inn: before Robilar gained it, how he gained it, while it was his, how he lost it, while it was someone elses, how he regained it, and how it is then.

5) Possibly a sourcebook with all of the above material and more in it; One that ties together everything to do with Robilar. This would allow us all to see the work piecemeal as you create it in the periodicals (and creating sales for TSR via subscriptions, and back issue sales) so we don't have to wait for it to be done. And so there is still room for revisions and expansion to be done once and for all in a sourcebook. Or you could jump right to the sourcebook. A lot of work, but a lot of great material able to be used by all Greyhawkers of whatever ('official') time-period or version of history.

Basically, I'd first like to see you detail everything about the old original Robliar, reconcile this Robiliar with the FtA Robilar, and then afterwards go on developing him as an important personage in the World of Greyhawk's future as you see fit (while reconciling it with FtA). That way the material that you write will be useful to the most Greyhawkers (IMO).

As for the discussions about creating a future Greyhawk that is all well and fine; but the future is build upon the past and the more strongly that the original (i.e. Pre-Wars) campaign is detailed (preferably by those involved in it) the more solid any future history of Greyhawk will likely be. Please, Rob, tell us all about Robilar and make solid that historical foundation so that Greyhawk can thrive in the future.

Well, those are some of my thoughts on the matter of Robilar since you asked. I don't know if feedback of this sort is what you were looking for, but there they are for whatever they're worth to you...

Best of Luck with Robilar whatever you end up doing with him. I look forward to seeing what you are going to do with him.

JV

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His Dread and Awful Presence, the Hierarch
Jason Verbitsky
JV@bc.sympatico.ca
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P.S. This is my first 'real' message to the list since my all too lengthy
absence, and the last where I'll use the 'Hierarch sig' as I have
realized that it can clutter up searches of the list archives. However,
I still, naturally, maintain my interests in the Horned Society.